TED System

Welcome to the club and fans of the Teds. I have easily sent signals in excess of 1500 meters at Whiteface and Winterpark and am sure they would do more.

Jenna

So to do a USSA scored event (Level 3) with TED still need 4 timers plus the one you use with the the TED????????????????????
Thought you could use Two + One with Ted???????
What is the story in the US of A???
For:
Scored USSA J1/2 races?
Non Scored J3/4/&5 races?
Thanks,
N

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Start and Finish are hard wired, you could use the TED's for intermediate and speed traps without adding all the redundant timers.

If you plan on doing starts or finishes with a TED, then you would indeed need all the redundancy of 4 timers.

First, I never said I was timing ski racing, I was timing mountian biking. Second, I was using 4 timers. Third, for all FIS and USSA Scored events you need two timers at the finish. Each time you eliminate a pair of wires, you need to add a synchronized timer at the start to basically back-up the missing wires and whatever method you would use to relay information from the start.
Jenna

So I need for a scored USSA wireless event:
One timer at start printing TOD all day.
One at finish printing TOD all Day.
Timer hooked to TED.
Total 3 timers.
or 2 timers at start +
2 at finish +
Tinmer hooked to TED
Total of 5 timers
Which is it? Just trying to figure it out to be within the rules.
N.

See this FIS timing Guide. Timing without wire is covered with nice diagrams.

2 Pairs of wires = two timers at the finish
1 Pair of wires = two timers at the finish, one timer at the start.
0 Pairs wire = two timers at the finish, two timers at the start.

The TED doesn't eliminate the need for a timer at the start, it only provides a way to get the data, or impulse from start to finish and is basically seen the same way as a computer, its a nice accessory, but completely un-needed to time within the rules.

You must still have manual timekeeping in place for all events.
Jenna

Yes I saw the diagram requiring 5 timers for wireless and thought requirment had been droped to 3. Thank you! BTW Timing MFG's love those rules.

I am not sure where you are getting 3 or 5 timers. Timing without wire requires 4 homologated timers. No more, not less required.
Jenna

Jenna,
I still want TED connected to timer and SST computer to provide unofficial results that will be confirmed by 4 timers at S/F later. 4 +1= 5. If I could only use one timer at S/F I would still need one hooked to TED for unofficial results. 1+1+1=3. That is where I came up with 3/5 timers. Belive that once TOD's from S/F timers are confirmed with TED's Timer then you can make the results official. Downloading Start timers TOD's into Finish timers to use for verifification will take time after the race and not allow for timily awards. How would you set it up and produce results for scored wireless event?

No, this is NOT right.

2 + 2 = 4 No other configuration works.

The Ted isn't a timer.

It is perfectly acceptable to do OFFICIAL results off of impulses transmitted from start wand into System A timer at finish OR transmit TOD Data from Start timer A at start to finish timer A at finish.

This is how I would set this up.

System A:
Connect System A Timer at Start (timer 1) into System A inputs of start gate.
Connect System B Timer at Start (timer 2) into System B inputs of start gate.
Connect TED Transmitter into System A inputs of start gate to impulse (Black and Green) inputs of TED.
Connect System A timer at Finish (timer 3) into System A Photocell
Connect System B timer at finish (timer 4) into System B Photocell
Connect TED Receiver black and green into System A Timer at Finish (Timer 3).

Synch ALL Timers through TED using patch cord in finish building.

Execute the event using All Timers running in TOD mode.

Timer 3 is connected to computer generating results, providing scoreboard output, etc.

At end of race calculate ALL times for all racers using subtraction and comparison of Timer 1 and and Timer 3 and Timer 2 and Timer 4. Times don't have to be exact, but MUST be close and consistent. If everything looks accurate, consistent and without anomaly, all times as transmitted from impulses at the start to Timer 3 would stand.

TDRF Must be completed twice, once for timers at the start, once for timers at the finish. TDRF 1: Net times for System A (timer 3) at the finish comes from the impulses received to generate the System A (timer 3) start TOD. Net times for System B (timer 4) at the finish would be blank.
TDRF 2: Insert at TOD as appropriate from correct (A or B) timers. All net times come from using subtraction from Timer 1 and Timer 3 and Timer 2 and Timer 4).

Where do you get 5 timers?
Jenna

So if my finish timers are in shoe boxes at the finish line running on batteries. I expect to use a timer hooked to TED in the timing building. Your asssuming I can run wire from finish to timing building.

I think that almost everybody here is assuming that, and Jenna provided a good explanation.

It seems you would like to get help for a VERY special configuration. In order to avoid wasting time, it would be easier if you provide a complete diagram of what you want to do.

I saw special situations with timing hut at the start, but the connections were by wire.

Remember that anything out of the FIS rules eventualy leads to a non homologated event.
If I were in your situation, I would ask to FIS's Cattaneo a written statement.
It's even likely that you may not get one, since you can't simply put together your HW in a FIS-accepted diagram.

I am not assuming wire from the finish to the timing buildings, the rules for both FIS and USSA REQUIRE wire from the finish photocells to the finish timers

Whether they are in boxes with batteries outside at the finish line, or 1000m away in a timing building, the FIS (and USSA) requirement is for wired connection of the finish. No other configuration is acceptable for a race on the FIS or USSA Calendar.

You can have a connection to the start without wire, but not the finish.

Jenna

Jenna,
Thank you. Must have hard wires at finish. That clears up that issue. Now how do I deal with the .1 delay from the Ted Tx at the start, since I won't be balancing it with the TX .1 adder at the finish?
N.

This also clears up running a compleatly wireless event for a scored USSA event, IT CAN'T BE DONE! Still hooked to a wire in NY.
N.

Upon further review of FIS Wireless Precisions.
"ANY Timing Solution after 2 Homologated timers with printers are place at top and 2 are placed at finish is accetable."
Free at last. Free at last. Dear God almighty I am free at last.
This is where the 5th timer comes into play in my heated timing room at bottom of the hill hooked to the TED. While my regular finish line is not in use due to lack of snow.

You are mis-interpreting something written in a way that is not in the rules. Please see the diagrams. The finish timers must ALWAYS be hooked, by wire to the finish. The two timers at finish you refer to in that sentence are connected directly to the finish.

The "Any" refers to any method to send start times from the start to the finish as in a skier skiing down start time, a radio sending down start TODs, a wireless transmission device such as a TED sending impulses OR data, or "Any" other way you can think of. This does not mean you can add a timer, as this timer would not be part of your system A or System B. If you are taking times from a 5th timer that then become official, that would be system A and it would need to be connected as per the rules via a wire to the finish photocell A.

You seem to not like my answers regarding ski racing and "Timing without Wire". I am providing this input as a timing professional, FIS TD and the Vice Chair of USSA's Timing Working Group. If you don't like my answer, please feel free to contact either of the North American representatives to the FIS Timing Working Group, Ted Savage or Allen Church.

You can always choose to time any race, any way you wish, I certainly can't stop you, or actually do anything about it. I can only educate you on the proper way, and recommend to the USSA Classification Committee to not score a race that was not properly timed. I have no doubt the TD at a FIS race would ensure timing is completed as prescribed by the FIS rules, but the same could be done with scoring of the race and the FIS Classification Committee. This may never be an issue, but it would be a shame for all of the athletes entered if there were a problem or dispute over timing and the race not to get scored.

Jenna

OK, Jenna is right with the layout of the 2 timers at the start and 2 timers at the finish. By hooking the TED to system A and to the "Start" channel at the finish (system A) using the TED is one way of this to work.

Now if you have another set of TED's you may then connect the RS232 output of the system A timer at the finish to send data to you in the race shack in which the Ted RX will be connected to your serial port of your computer.

This would allow you to "time" the race all from system A and if you "sync" through the TED system for the finish system "A", your .1 delay will not be a factor.

We time with a simplified method locally to allow the "timer..read computer" to be located in the bar and not in the race shack (better view of the race hill than the race shack). The race shack has an S4 with a TED-TX hooked directly to the RS232 output. (data mode).

You will still need 4 timers to pull this off properly.

The second rs232 TED system MUST be on a different freq. so not to interfere with the impulse TED's.

Sure, this works. I actually connect wirelessly to my timers as regular practice. Sending serial data from a timer connected to the photocells via wire is still different than sending wireless data from a photocell at the finish.

Instead his TED, Jim could also use use his MOXA Serial Device Server (SDS) or I could use my Quatech version and connect the SDS to a router with wireles signal. Then you can either connect to the router via LAN from wherever the timer is to wherever the the wireless LAN reaches. If the wireless LAN by itself doesn't have the range you need, add a cantena as John Jett does and get similar range as you would from our TEDs. Better yet open the UDP ports to the internet and use a WAN to connect to a virtual com port through the iternet. My router happens to allow WAN connection through a cell card (USB or Smart Card) so conceivably, I could send the system A data from a timer at any "finish line" with cell service to anywhere in the world. I believe this is the thinking behind the GSM dock that Tag Heuer built for the 540.

I digress, because you still have to have System A and B connected via wire to the finish...at most ski areas, its easier to buy a box of Cat 3 from HD Supply for $75 and run the 1000ft to the finish, or better yet, just time on a trail with wire?

Jenna

Jenna,
No disrespect meant. Just frustrated that in 2009 we are still hooked to a wire. The FIS wireless 2002 protocall says "ANY". That is a very broad word. Finish eyes would still be hard wired to TOD Homologated Timers with printers. All Start TOD's would be checked and all finish TOD's would be checked. I would be glad to present this option to the North American timing group for review, interpretation, and approval. Let me know.
N.

OK, so if System A and System B are connected via hardwire to the photocells. What is Timer 5 for?

Jenna,
Need Timer 5 for unofficial results hooked to the TED and SST Lap top/scoreboard sitting in the regular heated timing office. Other 4 timers would not be wired to computer. This gives orginizers option to run the race when regular wired Start and wired finish cannot be used.
N.

Hmmmmm..... now your intentions are quite evident, and unfortunately deeply wrong.

I personally think that your proposal is -please apologize me for being quite strong- really ill conceived even before being FIS-unacceptable.

You are trying to drive scoreboards, info, pc, actually alle the timing with a timer that actually has nothing to do with the competition itself, being a system outside the rules.

The official timing will be left alone in shoe boxes near the finish line. Oh my.

While I have no idea about the problems you may encounter to run some cables in your finish area, I believe that FIS did a good thing by deciding to set up strong rules for timing.
Rules that mostly help avoiding possible issues. Issues that are surely coming with such an installation.

You have here the opportunity to get help from highly experienced people like the ones who wrote before me. My suggestion is to follow exactly the diagrams and leave away the rest.

If the someone (the resort?) decided to host an USSA or FIS event, and the rules require wired connections, then wired connections should be available. No exceptions.

fdariz,
Amen,
Jenna

Read the FIS Wireless Timing System Precisions from Nov 2002. Clearly it states "ANY additional wireless solution from ANY manufacturer may be used." after the 4 timers are in place at the start and finish. Diagram needs to be ammended to match the Precision.
So after the athletes arrive at the site and plan on racing. We have to send them home because we can't finish where we have wires? I have had this unfortunate experience once too often. Best intrest of the athlete and sport is my intention.

I won't try any longer to explain what may be wrong or what may be right, because it is beyond my personal knowledge, beyound the purposes of an user forum. Moreover there is people supposed to do that far better than me.
If you have further doubts, ask USSA or FIS for a written statement. That's all.



Let me just ask you a couple of questions.

1) How will you deal with all the problems related to matching the official TODs later on?
There is a good chance that you may get ties that "were" not ties, just because of a .001 drift between the official timing and what you sent to the scoreboard, to the pc, to the announcer.....
You may have also inversions in the results, and even a new winner.... eventually half an hour later...
What will you say? Will you tell 'em that "the official timing in the shoe boxes at the finish shows new evidence"?
If I were you I won't be wearing a windjacket that day. I would choose a bulletproof protection!

2) Nobody hads doubt about your intentions towards the athletes. But rules are rules, and you already do the best for the athletes by simply following them. "Best intentions" cannot help. NO WAY.

3) Sometimes there are so many easy solutions to get through....
-a cable reel..even half a mile would be not that heavy and cost just some bucks;
-a radio modem from BlackBox or Xstream may send you the daytimes to the heated timing hut:
http://www.blackbox.com/Store/...ess/n-4294966713/p-0
http://www.digi.com/technology...00_2400solutions.jsp
-finally, if there are wires from the start to the finish (you didn't mention this possibility) you can connect the timers by wire and then use your TED to send the serial output from the finish to the timing hut.

Have no desire to catch any more flack. Take enough heat for every course I set. So just a few thousand more for 3 pair cable spools with the hope that they won"t get sliced. At scored races only 6 kids are around for the UN-Official results. Sometimes less. Only release official results after confirming TOD's from wired timers. Again this is not ideal situation nor would I purpose to race without a wires unless we had to. Unfortunatly mother nature causes us to adjust, improvise, & adapt.
N.

I must be missing something here. I have about a dozen spools of wire (cat 5 STRANDED network wire) of lengths from 100 meters up to a couple of thousand meters. Each one has a connection box on each end with six doubled banana jacks. With these I can move starts or finishes pretty much anywhere I choose and still have hardwired connections for timing. Wireless is cool, but hard wire is tough to beat for reliability.

Will these TEDs work with IPICO chip readers? I would like to catch splits. The split locations are located half a mile or so from results computer with trees and hills etc. Question being, how would you connect the TED to the reader to transmit the impulse of chip. The IPICO reader has no serial connection only USB and Ethernet. Curious?

How would you connect a TED to an IPICO chip reader? There is no serial connection only a USB and Ethernet. I want to catch splits in XC races that about a mile from results computer through trees and hills.

The TED can only transmit serial data (RS232 protocol) or impulses. You may be able to find a device that will translate the USB data to Serial data on both ends (converter on the receive side is easy but the transmit side ???) bench testing would be a must. One mile without line of sight would be a challenge for the TED, but may be possible. Test first to avoid sadness. Search for Device Servers on the internet, there may be a wireless device other than a TED that can accomplish this task without using USB converters. Wireless print servers do essentially the same thing however distance for these is usually less than 50 feet.

The TED system has been great for us. Transmitting USB would be a new twist. Ethernet should not be too much of a problem using an ethernet to serial adapter or serial server. There are some very good ones out there and we have used serial adapters and serial servers from B&B Electronics. As far as some other devices, as John suggests, I am not familiar with any devices that would accomplish what you are trying to do. The problem with most devices is that they operate in the 900MHz, 2.4GHz or 5.8GHZ range. The 900MHZ might get through the trees but hills would be another problem. From what you describe, I would not even try 2.4GHz or 5.8GHz as they tend to be more 'line of sight' or short distance through obstacles. One major advantage of the TED's is that they operate in the 433MHZ range where trees and hills are less of a problem. The TED 400 units have an antenna connector on the top of the unit so you could put a directional antenna on the unit to increase the range or help overcome the obstacles. I would recommend just trying a pair of units between your locations to see if the units will work. If the units work then I would look at interfacing your USB or ethernet to them.