Had this happen recently.

Set up everything with a Tag 540. When the start input is unblocked we get a steady stream of false pulses. After shutting down the timer and pulling the batteries then replacing the batteries and starting on battery power then connection the plug in power it runs fine. We use a large computer UPS in front of the clocks to make sure the power is clean as well. Any idea for the strange behavior. The PTB-605 doesn't exibit any of this behavior. Even when we switch the start inputs between the two.

I assume you don't have any sort of opto-isolation in-line? If that's the case, then the problem is pretty clear-cut. Buy one of these and your false impulses will disappear like magic.

http://www.blinkybox.com/

Seems odd that TAG Heuer would have brought out the 540 without incorporating opto isolation from the start into the design. Everyone knows that TAG timers have problems with false pulses dating back to the first series of PTB 605s. Pity that you have to always "add" on these adapters.

The only company that has built in isolation is Microgate. Even Alge doesn't "believe" in opto isolation for whatever reason.

Like American Express said "Don't time without it".
Jenna

OK Now the fun part.
Has anyone had problems with a HL553 not working. Last Sat ours would not let any pulses through. The led would flash showing the wand opening but it wouldn't send the pulse through. Even shorting the jumpers had the same result. Then on Tues the thing works just fine. It's driving me crazy.

If the wiring is sound (no shorts or odd currents etc.), even without an opto-isolator, shouldn't it be reasonable to expect that the CP540 should only generate a single time impulse when the circuit is closed when triggered by the start gate?

Since your opto-isolator doesn't seem to work either, maybe the issue is in wiring?

If not, maybe you should send the timer back for repair. What's the serial number of your CP540? I think Tag might have had some problems with the first batch of 540's that came out (I think the older series has serial numbers below 1000).

I had one of the early versions of the CP540 and had to send it back because it kept doing strange things. It was replaced with a unit with a higher serial number and it seems to work great.

Are you still working without opto-isolation? I'm not clear on that.

As far as Tag 553 goes I have heard of them going bad. It sounds to me like you had a polarity issue between the timer and the 553 which would cause the problem you spoke of. Open the start gate and the 553 gets the impulse, and the light blinks but no time recorded to timer. It worked the next time because the timer was connected with correct polarity. The other issue I have seen with 553s is with the battery connectors become not "springy" enough and I just bend them back to make the batteries tighter in their little compartments. That could also cause intermittent issues.

Please let us know what you figure out, but I am better on polarity
Jenna

Have been told/sold that the TAG 540 has the Opto-coupler isolation protection/buffer that you get when you buy the 553. I can vouch for the protection as we used the 540 when the blinky box was out at Whiteface and the 705's were getting many false signals. 540 did not get one false signal.

Snowbro, just to let you know that you are not the only one with this problem on CP540. It happened to me yesterday. First SL run went fine, and just before the second run I started getting false impulses on the “Start” channel (#1). I tried a few things and none of those helped: tried switching to channel 2 on the timer – false starts moved to that channel as well, tried disconnecting another timer (S4 which was not getting false starts), no change (I admit that another timer was connected directly and not through the optocoupler – we had only one and used it to connect two photo cells). As I was disconnecting the wires hopping to find the cause of the problem I realized something completely strange – the false starts would happen even with one wire completely disconnected – so having only the red one connected to the start gate. That caused me to believe that this is a RF interference issue. Having only one long wire connected means having a long antenna, doesn’t it?
However, I still have no idea what caused it. We continued the race with S4 and, as you can see, I started looking for an answer in this forum. Our 540 is one of the early ones (SN 135). I’ll connect the oscilloscope tomorrow and let you know if I find anything. Please do the same if you get any explanation for this problem.

I also have a question for all equipment experts. It’s about HL553 optocoupler. My understanding of the spec. (http://www.tagheuer-timing.com/_imgtiming/Specifications/en/HL553.pdf) is that two circuits are completely independent. This means that you can connect one start want to circuit1, input1 and one photo cell to circuit2, input1 and have two timers work happily, without mutual interference. However, the optocoupler doesn’t appear to work like that. If you connect one photo cell to circuit1, input1 and another cell to circuit2, input1, and connect one timer to circuit1, output any, another timer to circuit2, output any, both timers will get signals from both photo cells (similar to blinky box with “Link” engaged”). So the question is – is this intended HL533 behavior? Is there any internal jumper that can really make two isolated circuits or they are always linked? I understand that 533 is not offering too many user options, but wouldn’t it make sense that there is some kind of user manual that clearly explains the operation?
Cheers all,
Nikola

In response to: nickfromny

The 540 has a buffer yes, but no Opto-Isolation.

The only Tag device with built in Opto-Isolation is the 610 (Short range wireless). If you want on board Opto-Isolation, the only company to include it is Microgate.
Jenna

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jenna,

Sorry Jenna,

I didn't understand this buffer yes, opto-isolation no. Isn't HL553 supposed to provide opto-isolation or not? Are two circuits supposed to be independent or not? Is it possible to connect HL553 the way its spec. drawing describes or not (circuit1, input1 form the start and circuit2, input1 from the photo cell - both inputs routed to two independent timers)?
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Nikola

I'll give this a try....

The TAG 553 comes in two versions. A FIS version in which the Channel 1 & 2 are "OR" gates, meaning that first impulse in fires all outputs. This would be the same as the Blinky Box with LINK on. The normal 553, should be isolated between channels 1 & 2.......but the ground side of channels "1"'s outputs (both outputs on each input side) are a common ground and not a true isolation. This is a main difference between the Blinky Box and other opto's offered by Tag and Alge. With a Blinky Box you would always have to use both cables ( + and ground) and have proper polarity. Not sure how the Tag box will respond, if at all, with reversed polarity.

The triggering with a single wire is interesting, and I think Jenna is dealing with a similar issue? Maybe Jenna can elaborate with what is happening if known with a similar situation.

quote:

es, opto-isolation no. Isn't HL553 supposed to provide opto-isolation or not? Are two circuits supposed to be independent or not? Is it possible to connect HL553 the way its spec. drawing describes or not (circuit1, input1 form the start and circuit2, input1 from the photo cell - both inputs routed to two independent timers)?

In response to Jim and Nikola I have only ever seen one type of 553 but because TAG changes designs and their documentation is horrible, it is definitely possible they have had other devices that took two inputs to send one output. This is what I have:

My 553 has 2 inputs. Each of these inputs has two outputs. Each input is independent. Two separate batteries, etc. I can plug two devices into each input's output side using the two outputs provided (similar to a Blinky Box) but I can't link the two inputs (unlike my blinky box). Basically, you can use one 553 for one start and one finish, or two starts, or two finishes. I would always recommend if you only have two inputs to isolate your both starts before worrying about the finishes as the wire is usually much longer. In this case you would have System A plugged into input/output 1 and system B into input/output 2. Unless you have extra timers running, you would probably have empty outputs on the 553.
Hope that explains it. Not sure I did help.

As far as my similar issue, I generally time somewhere different every week, so its never the same! I haven't had issues with false starts when I use opto-isolation (as long as the isolators are working) so I am not sure. I have had three types of idolaters go bad as I think they can take a lot of abuse from hill wire EMF and travel.
Jenna

Perhaps it might be best to ask the TAG designer for his opinion.

jean.campiche@tagheuer.com

It would be best for one of you that has invested in the unit to do so.

It would also be a good idea to find out how long your warranty is as well so you are prepared for future issues. When does the warranty expire? Is it based on calender year or elapsed time since purchase?

We all know what an inconvenience it is to have to send your timer back to Switzerland to be repaired. Can you imagine having to send your car back to France to be repaired? Oh that sounds like Peugeot. Look where they are in Canada today.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Crafty Sportsman,

Tag Heuer hardware comes with a 1 year warranty. If you return something to Switzerland for repair, budget and pray for only a 4 months for turnaround time as sometimes it is longer. Don't forget to beg your distributor for a loaner in the mean time.
Jenna

Hello all and thank you for your replies.

I just got a confirmation from the Precision Timing that there are 2 different HL533s - just like Jim said - there is a FIS version and a standard one.
FIS version will route either input to all 4 outputs. Standard one has two circuits completely separated.

I believe that the problem that I had with the CP540 is caused by the power supply issues. I now think that it had something to do with the fact that the generator stopped running at some point, the timer switched to the batteries, and later re-switched back to the AC adapter. I think the CP540 somehow does not like this. At the time when these false finishes were happening I checked the voltages on all CP540 inputs and they were all 0V (usually they are around 4.3V).
Nikola

Yes, it is true that opto-coupling may help but it doesn't represent a solution to all pains.

It may even make harder to debug the real issue.

As an example, and being an HL553 user (the 'normal' 553) who knows what is actually optically coupled?
Inputs? outputs? Probably not both, since the power comes from a standard 9V battery that would be quickly dead if isolation trasformers were used.

That's probably why most of the manufacturers still prefer to keep opto-coupling out of the timer.

So what is a "buffer" that is in the 540 that is not in the 520, 605,& 705. Does Alge or Microgate have buffers built in. Does the "Blinky Box" and 553 have a buffer? The more I learn on this issue the more questions I have. Sorry.

Buffer..... I'll take a guess this has to do with a timer with multiple channels. If you get multiple impulses at the EXACT time on multiple channels, there needs to be a buffer for the timing chip to deal with all the hits in a sequential way (one after the other). The very old version of the TAG PTB's had issues here, but was fixed with a future software version (I think v13?).

The Tag 553 and the Blinky Box, have no buffer besides the "debounce" setting that checks the validity of a switch closure (verse static discharge or RF).

Tag uses a capacitor to "time" the switch debounce.

Blinky Box uses a temperature compensated clock to debounce the switch. This is why the "throughput" delay of the Blinky Box is so predictable and always the same no matter what channel of opto-isolation is used(If all the settings are the same).

Have you access to a Time Domain Reflectometer (TDR) and an insulation tester gear? I would bet the problems you are describing might have to do with bad insulation in the line and "leakage" from other wires in the bundle. Without the proper test gear, you may never get a good answer.

I know the gear is expensive, but we never time without doing a full test of all the lines with the TDR and the insulation tester to know the exact "stats" of all wire pairs involved. We then have the option of using the "Best" pairs.